Host: Isaline Muelhauser
Guest: Kavi Kardos
Kavi Kardos is an altruistic SEO evangelist with nine years’ experience leading organic search strategy for top companies in entertainment, cybersecurity, education, and beyond. A former Mozzer, she is the creator of Moz Academy’s Technical SEO Certification and a contributor to Whiteboard Friday and the Professional's Guide to SEO. Kavi is currently Director of SEO at Uproer. When she’s not obsessing over spreadsheets, Kavi can be found hosting pub quizzes for Geeks Who Drink or watching baseball with a good drink in hand.
In this episode, Kavi discusses how to recognize toxicity in the workplace and know when it's time to leave an SEO job. SEOs often find themselves isolated at work, functioning as a team of one and/or reporting to stakeholders who don't fully understand and support their goals. She shares how she learned to recognize the difference between constructive and non-constructive feedback, how to take accountability for failure while keeping mental health a priority, and the lessons she has taken from her experiences in managing a team herself.
Kavi would like her WTSPodcast episode to serve as encouragement and empowerment for anyone in a bad environment to advocate for themselves and find the work that brings them fulfilment.
You can connect with Kavi through her LinkedIn and Twitter/X.
Episode Transcript
Isaline: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the WTSPodcast. We are on a mission to amplify brilliant women's voices in the SEO industry. I'm your host, Isaline Muelhauser. Today, I welcome Kavi Kardos. Hello, Kavi.
Kavi: Hi, how are you?
Isaline: I'm great. I'm so happy to have you. We have such an important topic today. Today, we discuss what a toxic environment is. What does it look like? What does it feel like? More importantly, may I say, how to live gracefully?
Kavi: You hope so anyway, yeah.
Isaline: So, that's the key takeaway you'll have at the end of the podcast.
First, let's start with you. You are an SEO, leading organic search strategy for top companies in entertainment, cybersecurity, education, and beyond. Currently, you are the director of SEO at Uproer.
Kavi: Yep, that's all right.
Isaline: Preparing for this interview, you said that you wanted the interview to serve as encouragement and empowerment for anyone who's currently living in a toxic environment and to help us advocate for ourselves. First, what does it look like? How do I know? I mean, because there are always ups and downs in a job, right?
Kavi: Right. Yeah.
Isaline: How do I know that this is not good on another level?
Kavi: Yeah. That's a good way of putting it. There are always ups and downs in every job. And, you find yourself thinking day to day, "Is this the right job for me? Am I really in the right place?" I think the difference between a job that has its down days or days where you don't feel like you're doing your best and a truly toxic environment is that it becomes a pattern. So, I think if you're unhappy every day, if you're finding that you can't do your best work, that you aren't proud of the work that you're doing, and you aren't getting a recognition for the good work that you do, and help with the struggles that you're having at work, then it could be a sign that you're in a toxic place.
From day to day, when you feel maybe you're not doing your best, or I had a bad day today, or I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or something like that, that's one thing. But, when you notice that you're going home at the end of the day, every single day, or you just feel like you're drowning at work, and there's no one to help you out with that, I think that's when you start to recognize that there's a pattern going on. It's not just a sort of day-to-day struggle.
Isaline: Can you give me an example that would tell me, "Oh, yes. The issue is the job and not something else that might be going on in my personal life?" Like, I have these feelings, but is there something happening at the job that I can pinpoint or recognize?
Kavi: Yeah. In my case, I was in a previous position with an employer I won't name. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus. But, when I was working for this previous employer, I found myself in a situation where, especially working in SEO, we're often sort of isolated. If you're the only SEO working at your company, you don't necessarily have a boss or coworkers who understand exactly what it is that you do and who understand why it is that things might go wrong sometimes. If you don't achieve your goals, it's hard to explain why to somebody who's not working in SEO with you. So, I was definitely in that situation, the only SEO at the company that I worked at. We undertook a project that didn't go as planned. It seemed to go perfectly fine at first, and then we made some mistakes; I made some mistakes. And, it resulted in what I still think is probably an algorithmic penalty that traffic just tanked on the site and wouldn't come back. I found myself having to answer for that.
I think when I realized that this is not just, "I've made a mistake at work, and I need to claw my way back." When I realized that it was a toxic environment, it was because I wasn't getting support from my managers and my team. Even, from higher up in the C Suite, I wasn't getting support to come back from the mistakes that I had made. I wasn't finding support from, especially my direct managers to say, "Let's identify what the problems were. I'm going to help you fix them. And, I'm going to help you feel empowered to fix them." I was instead just being told, "This is unacceptable. You have to do something about this. If you don't do something about this, you'll be fired." As the person managing SEO at this company, I was also promised help at some point. I was promised that I would be able to hire additional help, to have, say a specialist or someone like that working underneath me to help with the roadmap that we had and the strategy that I had laid out. That help never came. Kept getting pushed back and pushed back.
So, I found that the company was making promises that they weren't keeping. And then, when we ran into struggles, I didn't have any support internally, either from a fellow SEO or something like that to help me come back from those mistakes. I think the main things that I noticed and that really helped me identify that this was a toxic environment were just that lack of constructive feedback, that lack of support for coming back from a mistake like that or coming back from a struggle like that. In addition to that, just the promise of help that never arrived. It sort of demonstrated to me that SEO wasn't a priority within the organization, but also made me feel like I wasn't a priority within the organization. My mental health and my success at work didn't feel like a priority either.
Isaline: Well, as humans, we know that we all make some mistakes at some point. And, as SEOs, we know that there are lots of things out of our control when we start implementing SEO strategies. So, I'm pretty sure lots of people can relate to what you've just said because we've all seen some deep in-the traffic and things happening when they are algorithm updates. So, you mean the company didn't realize those, I don't know how to call them, unplanned. I mean, it's beyond your control.
Kavi: Sometimes, yep.
Isaline: Some of the things are beyond our control because we don't tell Google what they should do, obviously. Sometimes, mistakes, they're not even mistakes. They can also be tests like we don't know what's best. And, you were not able to do these tests.
Kavi: Yeah. When we undertook this project knowing that there was a possibility that we would see a dip in traffic. I think when we realized this is not just a dip, this is a penalty. Because we saw traffic go down. We waited 30 days or so to see if it would come back. And, when it didn't, I needed to figure out how to say, "Okay, look. This is not just a temporary dip. This looks like something more serious. I think it's because of what we just did to the website, and I need to take accountability for that. But we also need to move forward. We need to figure out what happens next."
Having to explain exactly what had happened to people who, as you said, don't necessarily understand what is and what is not within our control when it comes to Google and penalties and all that sort of thing, made it much more of a struggle. If I had had somebody else around who understood that sort of thing, then I would have been able to have what I was saying, corroborated by someone else on the team. Instead, I was just sort of flapping my hands and saying, "I promise this is what happened." You're the only voice in the room. It's it gets to be pretty hard.
Isaline: But, it's a really difficult balance. How do you take accountability for a mistake or something you tried and didn't work out, all the while keeping your mental health a priority?
Kavi: Yeah, that is the hardest part. I think nobody likes to admit that they were wrong, or that something they were excited to try didn't work out the way that they thought it would. Especially, in my case, as I said, I was the only person responsible for this strategy so there was no one else to pin it on. I had outlined this project that we were going to undertake and then got all excited about it, carried out all the steps, and then it didn't work. It actually went backward. I think the most important thing for me in taking accountability for that was just the act of taking that accountability.
As I said, there's no one else around that I can point to and say, "This was their fault," or even "This was Google's fault," or something like that. I needed to admit that what I thought was going to work properly, did not and that I wasn't sure what to do next. What I was hoping would happen was that I would say, "I was wrong. I'm not sure why this didn't work the way that I wanted it to. Now, I need support both emotionally, and mentally." But also, in terms of resources from my team, I didn't get that, unfortunately, in this situation. But, I think telling people what you need in that sense, saying, "Here's what happened. Now, here's what I need in order to help me dig out of this," is part of admitting that you're wrong. So, taking accountability is not just, "Here's what happened. Here's what I could have done better," but also, "Here is what I need from you," or "Here's what would help me to do better or to improve upon this the next time we try something like this."
Isaline: Yes, I hear you. It's literally a constructive approach and looking towards the future. Whereas, just being descriptive and saying, "Oh, it didn't work." So, what would be like if you had a constructive approach, what's the difference between constructive and non-constructive feedback? Because we hear lots of feedback is a thing. We hear a lot, "Oh, ask for feedback. Feedback is awesome." What's your take on feedback?
Kavi: I think the difference for me is the definition of the word, right? We call it constructive feedback because it's intended to help you build something. Now, when I give feedback to members of my team, I try to ask them questions rather than just dictating what I think has happened. So, non-constructive feedback to me looks like, I'm going to tell you what you did wrong, or I'm going to tell you what is wrong with this thing that you've done, or this idea that you've proposed. I'm not really interested in what you have to say. I'm just going to tell you what I think. That's not really building. It's just piling on somebody, right? So, asking questions and saying, "What do you think went wrong here? What do you think you could do better next time? Are you satisfied with these results? If not, why not? How do you feel about what has happened here?" Rather than just saying, "Here's how I feel," making somebody else describe what happened in their own words and tell you what they think went wrong forces them to think about the problem in a way that actually builds towards a solution. Because they're the ones who are going to eventually have to fix the problem, right? They're the ones who are going to have to come back from it. They need to understand in their own words and their own mind how to get there. And, I think the best way to do that is to have them say it out loud. I'm a big fan of asking questions when giving feedback rather than just speaking to somebody.
Isaline: Let's say that you are unfortunate to be faced with someone who's explaining the situation to you. Is there a clever way to turn the situation around or to make it move forward in a way that is constructive? Because if someone tells you this and that and that goes wrong, how do you go forward? How do you turn this situation?
Kavi: So much of this has to do with personality, right? Feeling out the person and knowing how they work and how they think is, it depends, I guess that's the classic SEO answer. It comes into play with people, too. I think recognizing what someone is trying to get across and empathizing with them. Why are they upset? Why are they dissatisfied with your results? And, what can I say to make them feel better about it? I think that's an important piece. But also, not getting defensive and not trying to stick up for yourself. Well, you should stick up for yourself, but not in a defensive way, if that makes sense. I think rather than turning it around on them and saying, "Well, you don't understand," or "You weren't there, so you don't know," that sort of thing. Again, that's not constructive. That's not going to help you build towards a solution. I think if you find yourself being criticized or given feedback, that doesn't feel constructive. Asking questions yourself, "What can we do from here? Let's try to make this better. I hear what you're saying." Making sure they understand that they're heard that you do know what they're upset about, what they've seen. And then, saying, "Okay, I've got it. I hear what you're saying. What can we do now?" Just trying to move forward rather than focusing on what went wrong.
Isaline: At what point do you realize it's not moving? In your story, when did you realize that the situation was stuck?
Kavi: Yeah. I think for me when I was able to identify potential solutions and said, "Here is what I need to get there. I would like to hire someone internally. I would like more help with the projects that we're trying to undertake. We've got too much going on. This is too much work for one person." Making sure that I was very clear about, "These are my boundaries. This is what I'm willing to do and what I don't have the capacity to do. If you want me to do more, I will need X, Y, and Z. I will need these resources." And, being told, no, repeatedly. "No, you have to figure this out on your own. No, you have to make do with what you've got." As I said before, it just shows that SEO and me, as an employee, are not a priority in the organization. If I'm there telling you, this is what you have to do to make this work, and they're not willing to make it work, there's not really much else you can do at that point.
I was lucky to have the support of some of my coworkers and people that I could talk to at work who sympathized with me and made me feel like I wasn't crazy for having these objections. That definitely helped. But, it feels pretty lonely to be the only person who is concerned about something who's showing any concern about the issue, and who's showing any desire to actually move forward and do better. When I started hearing, especially from my team, that like, "No, you're right. This isn't good. This is not a good situation. You probably shouldn't be here anymore." I think that gave me the push that I needed to try and make an exit.
Isaline: I hear you. It's difficult to know, "Is it me?"
Kavi: Right.
Isaline: "Is it them? Am I seeing this right?"
Kavi: Yeah. I've said everything I feel like I know how to say. "Is there something I'm missing here? Am I not showing them the right pieces of data? Am I not asking for the right things?" That sort of thing. Yeah, it can be hard when you're the only one
Isaline: In your case, really having a sort of external perception, having colleagues also seeing the situation and maybe not feeling as much was helpful. But, if you don't have colleagues, what do you do?
Kavi: I think, you got to remind yourself -- and this is one of the things that I think it's really important for people to take away from this, from my experience. In SEO, in marketing, in these types of jobs, we're not saving lives. We're not doctors. Nothing in marketing is an emergency. Nothing is life or death. Whether you've got someone to corroborate the way you're feeling or not, your feelings are valid. Your feelings are your feelings. You can't change them, right? And so, if you're waking up every single morning and dreading going to work and coming out of every one-on-one with your boss, feeling like you've been beaten up, it kind of doesn't matter whether you're correct or not in those feelings. It's a fact that you are not thriving at work and that you're not getting what you need out of that job. The paycheck isn't worth it. The stress is not worth it. There's going to be something better for you out there.
So, setting your own boundaries internally and reminding yourself that nothing is worth the risk of your mental health. Nothing is worth the struggle of having to deal with an impossible boss. It's not the end of the world to have to leave a job. And so, I think people without those coworkers who can support them. I know that happens all too often as well. You've got to be your own advocate. You've got to be able to say for yourself, "This isn't right. I don't feel good. It's not worth it for me to feel like this."
Isaline: What's happened? So, one day, you woke up and you decided, "This is it." "I've had enough."
Kavi: I did that thing that I think a lot of people do where you start kind of feeling maybe you're not thrilled with work. So, you start casually looking for new jobs, and just kind of putting feelers out there, seeing what's out there. And, gradually, that search starts to get more and more serious. You start maybe taking an interview here and there. Making a few more connections with people like in the WTS SEO community, for example, and asking what jobs are available. I eased myself into it, and I did not want to leave my job without something else lined up because this all happened not that long ago. And, the job market has been really, really tough, especially for SEO. So, I was afraid to leave without something else lined up. That added to the stress, unfortunately.
I started thinking about that pretty casually. And, as I started to see, "Okay, there are a couple of interviews out there for me. I am seeing jobs that I'm interested in," that gave me more courage to have more serious conversations with my managers about what I was planning to do. I never delivered the ultimatum. I never said, "If this doesn't change, I'm going to leave." Because I think that's an unnecessary conversation. I knew I wanted to leave, regardless. So, I lined up another job, felt confident that that was going to work out, and just kind of put in notice and did it the way you normally do.
Isaline: Would you say that taking the steps to move forward actually gave you confidence to move forward?
Kavi: Yeah.
Isaline: Like sending out letters and stuff?
Kavi: Yeah. And, what's interesting I find this, at least applying for jobs. I know some people absolutely hate talking about themselves and hate writing a cover letter, and hate interviewing, which makes sense, too. But, for me, writing a cover letter, fixing up my resume, going into an interview, and talking about what I've accomplished, and that sort of thing, that makes me feel better about myself and the work that I've done. Because a resume is literally a list of all of the great things that you've done, right?
So, looking at that and reminding myself, "Oh, yeah. I did achieve these things at that last position," or "I did win this award," or whatever. Just going through the process of interviewing and applying, it gives you a little bit of a boost of confidence sometimes. I did find that as I was going through that process, and especially once I got to the interview stage with a couple of different companies, and it was going well, I was getting good feedback from people, that definitely gave me that, again, just sort of more corroboration, more assurance, that I'm not a terrible SEO. I actually do know what I'm doing. I am worth somebody's time.
Isaline: During your interviewing process, how did you tell the story? Did you mention the story, "I've tested this; It didn't work" which were such lessons? How did you approach mentioning the situation you were in?
Kavi: Right. One of the questions that you frequently get is, "Tell us about a time that you failed." When I was asked that question, this most recent situation was obviously the one that came to mind. And, you're in an interview, so you don't want to make yourself look bad. But, at the same time, I wanted to show that I have the ability to take accountability for my actions and that I recognized what had gone wrong.
So, kind of just telling them what I told you. "Here's what I did. We tried this. It didn't work. And, I can now, in hindsight, identify what went wrong. It was this, this, and this. We should have done this differently. I recognize that if I had had different resources, I could have done this." But, again, not laying the blame anywhere. Just saying, "Here's what happened. Here's what went wrong. I recognize my mistakes." I think that in itself is more impressive to potential employers than even talking about your accomplishments. Being able to say, "I know what to do when something goes wrong. I've had this experience and I'm not going to make that mistake again. And, I know how to admit my faults and I know how to admit my failures." I think employers really love hearing that. So, it again, was just sort of a boost of confidence.
Isaline: It seems like you were able to show your potential. Like, "Okay, this is what I know today. But, taking accountability, this is what I'm able to accomplish in the future." Because you were able to grow.
Kavi: Yeah. Nobody wants to hire someone who doesn't know how to learn. Right? You're not going to come into a job with every single skill that you need in order to excel, and there's always going to be more for you to learn; especially in the world of SEO. There are new skills to learn, new programming languages to learn, all kinds of stuff. So, showing an employer, "This happened. I learned from it in the following ways," just demonstrates that you're going to be eager to learn, that you're going to be able to take whatever comes at you and roll with it. Especially now that I'm involved in our hiring process, I'm definitely looking for people who both can admit to failures, and who are excited to learn from mistakes, and excited to test things. Sometimes, they work and sometimes, they don't.
Isaline: If you could advise past you, who is in the middle of that situation, what would you tell past Kavi?
Kavi: I think I would tell her to get out of there faster. But, just the reassurance that things that are your fault are your fault, and the things that aren't your fault, aren't, and there's nothing you can do about that. You can't change the past. The only thing you can do is change the way you handle the present and the future.
And, again, just a reminder that this is not life or death. No one's going to die because you mess something up on this website. So, I think I would tell myself that it's okay to fail. It's okay to admit that you failed. The important thing is to learn from it, and move forward, and advocate for yourself, and keep your own mental health a priority. That's the most important thing. Because that is serious. Marketing is not serious, but your mental health is. So, I think that's what I would remind myself.
Isaline: It's wonderful how you are able to reflect on what happened and take all of those lessons today, and really share them with me, with us, and anyone who's listening. My usual closing question is, for someone who's in this situation today, would you give them the same advice as to past Kavi?
Kavi: Oh, yeah. I think so. I think I would, and especially these days with this really tough job market. I think I would tell people you want to be careful about leaving a situation that isn't ideal. You want to make sure that you've got the support, or the finances, or whatever you need to stay afloat if you're not able to find something new right away because that's been really difficult for people these past few months, at least in the States. I assume it's the same in other places, too. Assuming that you've got the support that you need to leave, just do it. There's something better out there. Sometimes, not having a job is the push that you need to get a new one. If you feel like you really have to get yourself into another situation, sometimes that's the push you need to get there. Even if that means taking a slight pay cut, or taking a job that isn't your dream job, or something like that, just getting yourself out of the situation that's making you feel terrible, day in and day out, is the most important thing. Jobs are temporary. So, even if you land yourself in a situation that's not ideal, something else will come along. You can keep looking.
Isaline: Thank you for sharing your story today. I'm impressed how you are able to discuss something which I imagine at the moment when it happened was full of emotions and really difficult to go through. So, thank you for sharing. This is awesome. I'm very impressed and I'm proud of you. Thank you for going out there and sharing this.
Kavi: I'm proud of myself, too. I'm really grateful for this experience because you're right, it did not feel good while it was happening, but it gave me to learn some hard lessons and to stand up for myself in a way that I hadn't had to before. Even though I wasn't happy it was happening at the time, I'm glad that it did now.
Isaline: And, look at you today.
Kavi: Yes. I'm in a much better place, and I'm really happy about that as well.
Isaline: I'm sure you're not making the same mistakes you have seen past managers do.
Kavi: Yeah. I'm trying to be better with my team. It definitely taught me something about how to manage people, which is also something I'm really grateful for. As far as making my own mistakes, I will continue to make them. I think I am better equipped now to embrace those mistakes and just learn how to learn from them rather than feeling terrible that they happened all the time.
Isaline: Thank you so much for being with us today. It was my pleasure to interview you. Anyone who's listening, if you have any follow-up questions, obviously ask, we are here and we are happy to help you out. I mean, you closed so beautifully that I'm at a loss for good words.
Maybe the best thing I can say is the Women in Tech SEO community is open for anyone who's interested in SEO, no matter your level of experience in SEO. We are happy if you join. So, if you're thinking about joining the community, do it today and you'll meet wonderful people like Kavi.
Kavi: Yes. We're there to talk about career stuff, too, not just SEO questions. These types of conversations are welcome as well.
Isaline: Yeah, very true. It really helps to have sounding boards.
Kavi: It definitely does.
Isaline: Someone to discuss ideas. Thank you so much, Kavi, for the interview. Thank you everyone for listening. You'll hear me and the next guest in the next interview.
Kavi: Thank you so much for having me, Isaline.
Isaline: Thank you to everyone.