Host: Isaline Muelhauser
Guest: Greta Koivikko
In this week's episode, Greta Koivikko shares what it is like to work with a neurodiversity. She discusses what she means when she says ‘being on the spectrum’, her personal tips to manage time and work relations (including adjusting to British politeness) and how she is able to intensely focus on tasks. She also tells how co-workers can be mindful and what she has learned about herself. We find out what inspires Greta and what empowers her to be the brilliant woman she is today.
You can connect with Greta through her LinkedIn and Twitter.
Follow Women in Tech SEO on Twitter.
Episode Transcript
Isaline: Hello, everyone. Today, we are talking about the topic "Working with a Neurodiversity," with Greta Koivikko.
Hi, it's Isaline. Today, we have an amazing guest. It's been a long time since I've wanted to invite Greta here. Finally, she is with us. She's going to share with us a very, very important topic, what it's like to work with neurodiversity. Also, how as a colleague, we can help and be supportive in the workplace. Let's all welcome Greta here. Hey!
Greta: Hey! I'm so happy to be here today. It's a podcast I enjoy listening to. A major life and career goal to be here.
Isaline: Thanks. It's a pleasure to have you. Of course, everyone can find Greta on Twitter. She has an excellent handle. Her greatness, fun play words. Don't hesitate to ask any follow-up questions after this interview, of course.
Greta works as an SEO strategist, specialising in eCommerce SEO. Being on the spectrum, she's passionate about neurodiversity at the workplace. I laugh anytime I say "neurodiversity" because we discussed the correct pronunciation. So don't mind me, and let's start. Yeah.
Greta: Forgive us both. Neither one of us speaks English as our first language, so we are just trying.
Isaline: First of all, Greta, tell me what do you mean -- can you explain what it means to be on the spectrum?
Greta: Yeah. When I say that I'm on the spectrum, I'm referring to the fact that I got diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder when I was 9. But, usually, the reason people say that they are on the spectrum, they use that terminology to acknowledge that autism, it's a spectrum and that everyone with autism is different. There's no really one-size-fits-all. And when it comes to autism, terminology can be quite different. For example, when I describe myself and my autism, I use a lot of different ways.
I might say that "I have autism," "I'm autistic." I might say, "I'm neurodiverse," or that "I'm on the spectrum." All of those to me, essentially, mean the same thing that I'm autistic. If there's anyone who doesn't quite know the definition of autism, so I just looked up an official definition. It's a developmental disability caused by differences in the brain. Some people see it as a disability, some people prefer to think of it as a difference. But, yeah, it's a brain thing.
Isaline: How does it affect your working life? What difference does that make?
Greta: I like to think about like pros and cons of it. Obviously, the bits that need maybe more accommodation are the cons. But I also want to kind of recognize how my autism has helped me, not only at work but also at school growing up. So, because of my autism. I have a quite good memory. Not quite photographic, unfortunately. I wish I did. But I tend to remember things, especially if they are facts that I find interesting. So, that's definitely helped me at work, especially when I started SEO two years ago. Because there were a lot of new concepts I had to learn.
Another thing that has helped me at work, is the fact that I'm able to focus intensively. Especially, again, if it's something I'm really interested in, like SEO. I might go into these like very kind of deep work, working zones, or moods where I just smash things through. That's something that helps. Especially, if you need to complete something for a deadline. But then, of course, there are also the more challenging bits, which kind of people may not know about.
I think my biggest difficulty at work related to my autism is poor time management skills. It's not that I, on purpose, leave things until the last minute. It's just, for me, it's very difficult to estimate how long tasks take. And it's not only at work, it's also in my free time. In every aspect of my life, I might be like, "Oh, I'll be ready in 10 minutes," but I won't be. Because the thing I think takes me 10 minutes actually takes me 20 minutes. That's something I really need to keep an eye on. Especially, working in a busy agency where you're always juggling multiple deadlines. We're going to talk about that a bit more later on how workplaces can support their neurodiverse employees who struggle with the same thing.
Besides that, for time management, I think another thing that sometimes causes me issues at work is not understanding indirect communication or missing social cues. I think that's something that's quite commonly associated with autism something people tend to know more about. Autistic people, tend to communicate quite directly, maybe more directly than non-autistic people. I think, especially living in the UK, I've really had to sometimes adjust my way of communicating. I don't know if it might be the fact that I'm autistic, or it might be the fact that I'm finished, or maybe a combination of both of them. But I tend to have quite a straight-to-the-point way of communicating.
And then, when I started working in the UK, I realized that here, I need to be a bit more strategic with the way I say things. Just like British politeness, it can be seen as rude if I just boom, boom, boom. Just shoot up, straight to the point. I may need to say certain small talks, certain politeness, kind of beat around the bush as to say before I get to my point. So, that's something that doesn't really come naturally from me. And then, when people speak to me in that way, I really need to focus to pick what they want me to understand because I can easily get lost in a conversation.
Let's say, for example, I'm getting feedback from someone at work. Maybe they want me to improve in a certain aspect. They might want to say it in a really polite way. Like, what do you call it? Like, is it like a hamburger model that like you want to give someone feedback, but you kind of wrap it in compliments to make sure that it doesn't sting so much? I appreciate it works for some people. But for me, if someone gives me feedback in that way, I might completely miss the thing I actually need to improve on. So, yeah, I think those are the two things how it affects my work, time management, and communication when it's vague.
Isaline: Do you think that's, especially, in person or in the office? Or do you also feel this when you are working remotely or having Slack or email conversations?
Greta: It's especially challenging when you're on Zoom or Google Meet because when you are at the office, at least for me, it's easier kind of to follow the flow of the conversation. But with something like Zoom where everyone's internet speed is a bit different, people might easily end up interrupting each other. That always happens to me on Zoom. I kind of think, "Okay. Now, that person has finished. Now, I'll go in with my point." But then, they haven't actually finished. It can be tricky both ways.
Isaline: Did you develop some personal tips? Maybe a Post-it to remember to do a little bit of chit-chat.
Greta: It's just something that time has helped with because I've lived here for nearly four years now. Now, I've learned that, for example, at the beginning of our client meetings, we might say, "How was your holiday? How was your weekend?" before we go to the point. Just assimilating into the culture. But then, if I ever move back to Finland, I need to assimilate again. Remember that in that country, you need to go straight to the point. It depends on your surroundings as well.
But I got to say that where I work now in Novus, I've been here like seven, eight months since September. I do want to give a little shout-out that Novus is a place where I found a really good place to work for neurodiverse people. Actually, even one of my managers is neurodiverse, which is quite a big thing for me because it makes me feel represented. Because I remember, I was once attending a lecture on autism and they mentioned that. It was quite a high number like only 20% of autistic adults in the UK are employed. This is not a reflection of autistic people's abilities, but more of the lack of accommodation within the workforce. So, kind of seeing autistic people, especially autistic women in leadership positions, always makes me feel really good because it kind of shows me that it's possible even with certain things that hold you back.
Isaline: In your working life, did you find it was an easy topic to discuss in a working environment? Or how did you feel about sharing, like explaining to clients? Do you have to say something special?
Greta: For clients, I haven't really brought it up. I mean, it's not that like I would've wanted, but it just hasn't come up or there's been no situation where I've felt it's been needed. I've usually mentioned it at some point at work, especially if you need to fill in anything facts about me when joining. I feel like it helps that my colleagues know about it so maybe they can interact with me differently in a more clear way. But, for me, I've been lucky enough to work in quite an open and good and supportive organization. So, it's made it easier to kind of disclose that fact. But then, I also acknowledge that since I got diagnosed really young. I was only 9 years old. So, that means that I've grown up knowing I'm autistic. It's always been like a really big part of me, part of my personality, my identity. So, it's something I'm really okay with and kind of don't mind talking about.
But then, I know that if you, let's say, get diagnosed as an adult, it might be a more difficult topic to talk about. Maybe it's something you're still coming to terms with yourself. So, I also think that since it's something I've come to terms with. I then want to kind of talk about it, then open the floor to the people as well who may still be in the process of getting there.
Isaline: Let's say that I'm your colleague and I'm really unaware and I'm trying to be nice, but very clumsy and unaware. How would you educate me? What do I need to know and understand?
Greta: Well, if I think of something super specific that sometimes maybe, not cost issues for me, but it's made my working life easier when it started happening. So, asking how that autistic or neurodiverse colleague likes to be briefed on tasks and projects. Because, obviously, whether autistic or not, everyone's a different learner. Some people prefer to take information on a call or some people prefer to have it written. But I'm very much a fan of written, brief tasks.
So, if someone just briefed me on a task on a whim, randomly at the end of a call. If I'm not taking notes or not fully registering, there's a high chance that I don't get it right. So, I think that's one little thing that people can do to show that they are accommodating. Not only for autistic people but really anyone because we all differ in that way. Or it might be that someone has, I don't know, learning difficulties or dyslexia, and they prefer to go through the information multiple times just to make sure they've understood. So, that's maybe one thing.
And then, another, not getting offended that I might ask a million questions because I actually had a chat about this with my colleague earlier. She had read this interesting article somewhere that often non-autistic people might get a bit confused or even offended when autistic people ask a lot of questions because they think that there's some ulterior motive behind those questions. Maybe trying to prove the other person wrong or make them look bad. But really, the questions are to, at least for me, they are just to make sure that I've understood correctly. I've gotten all aspects of the brief or whatever I've said. So, yeah, anyone who manages me or works with me, I usually just like warn them in advance that I'm going to ask so many questions. So please, please don't mind.
Isaline: Right. So the questions that are really a way to show your interest and make sure you understood correctly, rather -- yeah, there's really no motive.
Greta: Yeah. It's just to make sure, for example, if it's one briefing a task, just to make sure that I've got all aspects of the brief. That I'm doing it from the right point of view, and that the output will be the right format. It's really just to make working easier both with me and also with the person who's expecting to get the task out of me.
Isaline: It seems understandable. But I have seen you, when you explain it, I'm like, "Okay. Yeah, I see." But I have seen you posting on social media and saying that you are looking for speaking opportunities, which means that you feel the need to explain more and share about it. So, tell me, why is it important to share about neurodiversity?
Greta: For me, even though it's much more open these days, the discussion about neurodiverse people, it's no longer as taboo as it used to be. But another statistic that I want to mention that's something that stick with me, I think it was like the Institute of Leadership and Management or some big institution in the UK shared this statistic. According to their studies, 50% of employers would not employ a neurodiverse person. And obviously, that's something that I find really sad because neurodiverse people have so much to offer. So, coming across statistics like that, it really shows why it's essential that we keep talking about neurodiversity in the workplace. People need to know that neurodiverse people can make and are brilliant employees.
Some of us just might need a bit of support there and there, or maybe adjustment. But then, I feel like it's also due to a lack of knowledge on how to actually make those adjustments, how to support. One thing that my workplace has been really good at is that they've actually educated managers on how to manage neurodiverse people because I'm not the only neurodiverse employee at my place of work. So, I know that they've sent my line managers and a couple of other line managers to an actual course so they can learn better ways of managing neurodiverse people. I was really touched when I heard about that because it made me really feel kind of seen and understood, and also made me happy that it may be that I don't need as many adjustments, but there might be another neurodiverse person who needs more. So, knowing that those support systems are in place really makes me happy.
Isaline: When you speak on podcasts and go to conferences, you are hoping to change the statistics, right?
Greta: Yeah. Obviously, it's often like the organizations and the leadership team that has to kind of understand the seriousness of this issue. So, by speaking about it, maybe sharing those statistics, sharing actionable tips around how to support neurodiverse people, I'm hoping that those will get heard by the right people, the people making the decisions. One other thing I've heard that many neurodiverse people struggle with is hiring practices and interviewing.
Personally, I'm this weird person that I enjoy like interviewing for jobs. I appreciate that I'm the odd one out here, but I know that quite a few neurodiverse people might not stereotypically be what is seen as a good candidate, you know? Many people still associate things like eye contact, firm handshake, personable, skilled communication, and backs of confidence. They might associate those kinds of things with someone being a good candidate.
But then, these are some things that might place neurodiverse people at a disadvantage. So, when kind of companies maybe goes through their hiring practices, they can think of ways how they could make interviewing more kind of a nicer experience for neurodiverse people. And then, that way, they could also maybe have a more diverse workforce, make sure they're hiring different kinds of people.
Isaline: What's an example of the ways a company could change the hiring process or step, or evaluation, is it?
Greta: Well, when I've chatted with some other autistic people, many of them have mentioned that they struggle, for example, with maintaining eye contact with the interviewer. Or someone, who has ADHD, mentioned that they might get easily distracted. Because a job interview is usually quite a structured discussion. But someone with ADHD might struggle with that and easily kind of hop between topics. So, I think it's mostly just if the interviewer is aware that these kinds of things may happen to neurodiverse people, and maybe willing to overlook them, understand that they are not -- if someone is like that in a job interview, it doesn't mean that they are a bad candidate or they can't make it. Such as kind of acknowledging that there are different ways to do job interviews.
So, I know sometimes, some people might struggle with when you go to an interview, you don't exactly know what they're going to ask. You can't prepare to set questions. I've known of organizations that have sent neurodiverse candidates the questions in advance so they can go through them and prepare for them, and then that will help reduce their anxiety through the interview process.
There are some good resources on this. There's this organization in the UK that's really close to my heart. It's called "Ambitious about Autism." It's a charity, but it's not only UK-specific. So on their website, they have lots of good resources for how to make hiring processes or work-life adjustments more adaptable and kind of make them fit autistic people's needs. So, if there's anyone listening who wants to learn more, maybe how to revamp the interview process, or just make their place of work more welcome for neurodiverse people, I highly recommend checking out "Ambitious about Autism."
Isaline: What do you have planned about speaking opportunities or about sharing about neurodiversity for 2023?
Greta: I haven't actually pitched anything yet because this spring's BrightonSEO will be the first Brighton I'm missing in like two and a half years. Because I'm actually getting married in the same month. But once that's all over, once I've post-wedding planning, I definitely want to pitch for Brighton in, Autumn 2023, and maybe some other conferences as well. I have a couple of more direct SEO topics in mind, but I would want to do a big talk about neurodiversity on a big stage at some point as well.
Isaline: How exciting. Well, you have a really good reason not to go to BrightonSEO.
Greta: Yeah. It hurts me not to be there, but yeah, I think I have a good reason.
Isaline: That's great. Do you have any favourites? Like, in case anyone is listening. I mean, podcasts, conferences, webinars, you are up for anything. We can send an invitation your way.
Greta: Yeah. I'm not really -- everything goes. I do quite enjoy like, physical conferences. Because I find that kind of interacting with the audience, telling a couple of jokes really helps me relax and, you know, while I'm speaking. But I wouldn't mind doing other podcasts as well. I quite enjoy the kind of conversational aspect of a podcast. Because, obviously, when you ask conference doing a talk is much more structured. But then, with podcasts, I like it that you can suddenly say a question that I haven't maybe even thought of myself. And then, I -- yeah, everything goes.
Isaline: Excellent. The word is out there. If someone is going through a similar experience or similar feelings, what would you tell them?
Greta: You can still make a brilliant employee, not even -- I don't even want to say "despite you having autism." Because that kind of would make it sound like it's a struggle. So I think just try to adjust your thinking that despite the challenges, your autism may cause you, try to see it as a strength. So, that's why when I was earlier speaking about how my autism affects my work, every time I speak about that, I make sure that I don't only list the challenges, I also list the strengths because I think it's important to also acknowledge that there are things that our autism can help us with. So, just make sure that you focus on those as well, and not only the challenges.
Isaline: That's excellent. We'll make sure the word is out there, and we agree 100%.
Greta: Good.
Isaline: We have closing questions. As we're here to support each other, what is the number one tool or practice that you've really enjoyed recently or that made a change in your career or your growth?
Greta: I'm happy you asked because there's this one app that I discovered about a week ago and it's really changed my life. I appreciate it's not directly related to SEO or autism, but I do say that good sleep helps you do better at work.
So, like many autistic people, I've always had chronic sleep problems. But for me, it's not insomnia. It's the other way around. I sleep too heavily. If you're there suffering from insomnia and you're like, "That sounds like a dream." I'm telling you, it's not. I struggle a lot with waking up to my alarms because I sleep so deeply out there. I just sleep through all my alarms. So, that's why I always have like 30 different alarms, and both my phone and a physical alarm clock. But no longer because I found this app called "Sleep Cycle."
It's essentially like an intelligent alarm clock that it likes tracks and analyzes your sleep patterns. And then, it makes sure that it wakes you up when you add this lighter sleep phase. So, you can maybe tell the app like, "Okay. I need to wake up at 7:30." And then, it gives you like a 30-minute window between 7:00 and 7:30. And when you are at your lightest sleep phase, that's when it wakes you up. And I've been using it for a week. Literally, every day, I've woken up on time. So, that's really changed my life. So, if there are any other people there who struggle with waking up to their alarms, try this app. Not sponsored by them. I'd love to be, but yeah. I just want to share the word with anyone who might struggle with waking up.
Isaline: Just an app and you rise and shine, and you are ready to do things? That sounds really awesome!
Greta: Yeah. I was super suspicious when someone recommended it to me, but yeah. I'm ready to become their spokesperson now. It's changed my mornings. Like even if I haven't gotten enough sleep because it wakes me up when I'm already almost awake. It makes me feel like I've got more sleep than I actually have. So high recommendations for "Sleep Cycle."
Isaline: Thanks a lot for sharing about the app. And, of course, thanks a lot for sharing everything about your working life, and what you're doing at the moment, and we'll make sure to get the words out there, and you have lots of speaking opportunities your way.
We are WTSPodcast, and we are on a mission to amplify brilliant women's voices. It was great of you to make the time and to join me for this interview. Of course, if anyone has any follow-up questions, they can get back to you on Twitter and probably on LinkedIn. I mean, your name is easy to find. And, of course, lots of entries on social media. So, just go ahead, people, ask and share. Thanks a lot, Greta, for joining me.
Greta: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It was such a nice discussion and a good way to start a week. I appreciate Monday morning, we are recording this, but I already feel more ready for this week ahead now after our chat.
Isaline: Yay! Let's do that. Thanks a lot. And I was your host, Isaline Meulhauser. You can find us on Twitter, and WTSPodcast. And I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Bye and thank you.